Retrieved #4 Feminist Foreign Policy in the Academic Discussion

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“If you do not involve women in politics, it means that that participation is not really meaningful”. “I am the Foreign Minister of the world's first officially feminist government, consisting of 12 men and 12 women. And since my government assumed office two years ago, I have pursued a feminist foreign policy”. I see it in, if you like, in definition, be a policy which really elevates and coordinates efforts to institutionalize, to some extent, gender equality and women's empowerment”.

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Christina: Feminist thinkers have been contributing to International Relations studies for decades, noting gender biases and helping the field rethink traditional ways of doing things.

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George: And ultimately, leading us all the way to the radical feminist foreign policy we spent this show exploring.

Christina: But how did we get here?

George: And what exactly have these academics, activists and policy makers been bringing to the table?

Christina: I'm Christina.

George: And I'm George. And we are journalists and producers at the Greek Podcast Project.

Christina: And this is ‘Retrieved’, the podcast that shines a light on the new chapter of foreign policy, taking it out of its dusty past and into a fairer future. George, who are we speaking with today?

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George: Today, we're speaking with Lucia Yar, who's the acting editor-in-chief of Euractiv Slovakia, and she has, for about a decade, been doing plenty and plenty and plenty of analysis, research and documentation of feminist foreign policy. She holds a PhD in Political Science from the University of Bratislava. She's done lots and lots of work in Turkey and she's also an expert on the EU's Common Foreign and Security Policy. She sits in between being an academic, being a journalist, being an activist. So yeah, I think…

Christina: I think she's going to have a good grip on the academic developments of a feminist foreign policy.

George: Shall we jump right in?

Christina: Let's do it.

0:02:27
Christina: Hi Lucia, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here.

Lucia: Hello, Cristina.

George: Hi Lucia, I'm George. How are you doing?

Lucia: Hello, Jorgos, George. Greetings from Bratislava.

Christina: So you're in Bratislava. Are you from there?

Lucia: Not directly from Bratislava, from the exactly opposite part of the country, but yes, I've been living here for some time. The capital city is almost the most western city in the country, so then everything that goes to East kind of develops in a different way, how you would think West and East, we have that division in the country.

George: Let's jump right in. So in our research, we see that you've been involved in politics through academia, journalism and policy-making, so you've got quite a few different sorts of perspectives. But before we go into the interview, are you able to tell us a little bit more about your background and how you got to the place where you are now and what it is you actually do now?

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Lucia: My 9 to 5 is being editor-in-chief in Slovak Euractiv. It's a portal, that portal about the EU policies. I particularly cover the foreign affairs, security, and more and more kind of feminist foreign policy or the gender aspect of those subjects. Before it's been quite a journey. Yes, I worked at the Ministry of Defense, shortly at the European Commission, a couple of years in Turkey. I'm actually a Turkey political analyst, mostly here in Slovakia back. And last year I accomplished, I finalized my PhD on women's representation.

Christina: That's fascinating. So you have expertise in academia, journalism and policy-making, which is quite the trifecta.

Lucia: Yes, it kind of got together shortly.

Christina: So in this episode, we're going to concentrate on feminist foreign policy and academic discussions. So we're going to draw from your years of doing a PhD on representation here. And we'd like to start with some of the prevalent definitions in international relations, those being definitions of ‘power’, ‘sovereignty’, ‘hegemony’, and ‘security’. How are these definitions changing because of a feminist approach to international relations and how are they changing for the better?

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Lucia: Feminist scholars really are talking or arguing that these concepts have often been kind of understood or maybe analyzed through kind of gendered blind lens. They are neglect or they've been neglecting before, these gender dynamics, power dynamics, and then this traditional notion of power is no longer that much relevant. That's why when there is kind of definition of what does it mean to promote feminist international relations or feminist policies, we are not focusing anymore on this kind of needs of the most privileged. But it's much more about needs of all people first. That's why the concept of human security, well-being, these are the definitions or these are the terms that are coming to mind in the new definitions when feminists are talking about foreign policy. The definition itself, the definition of ‘feminist foreign policy’ has also been evolving. If we start already in like early 80’s, it was much more focused on women's rights than it went on through the topics such as intersectionality. I think we will mention this a lot, this kind of understanding that, basically, gender intersects with other social categories, like class, race, sexuality and also kind of an inner critique that comes also is that it does not include gender non-conforming people, that it often kind of paints this picture of binary world, which obviously is not the case, but I think especially the new generations are reflecting on it very strongly and really talking much more about human security, focus on marginalized groups, not only women, it's really not only about women.

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George: And can we move on and talk a little bit about the actors that produce knowledge on feminists like international relation theory and feminist foreign policy? So who are they? Who are the sort of experts? Have you got examples of governments or civil society organizations? Maybe examples of some thinkers?

Lucia: We see, I think, everybody in academia who's looking into it, suddenly more and more papers on the topics are coming. Obviously, the very first came already in the 80’s, but it is much more frequent now. Feminist activists and organizations, I think particularly the one in Berlin standing for feminist foreign policy really gained prominence. I think we need to mention them. Then you mentioned governments, obviously, and I think again we will mention Sweden, the country that kind of introduced it in practice, and then other countries, France, Luxembourg, Canada, even Mexico, Libya, Spain, Netherlands is very vocal for the couple of years and obviously Germany, who actually kicked off that process, really calling their foreign policy a feminist one. And then also international organizations, including UN, World Bank, OECD, they all are having their research policy analysis, their report and also they produce very important data indicators and then eventually some guidelines which are obviously strong and important. On the level of the European Union, we also have a couple of examples, the European External Action Service, this is for gender equality and women empowerment in the EU external action. And then we also have the EU report on gender equality. This is also a bit older, but that was kind of a fight in the European Parliament. It basically talks about the gender equality in EU's Foreign and Security Policy. Even they managed to get the F word, the feminist, into that report. So that was quite a success for the European Parliament.

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Christina: Amazing. And when was that report released?

Lucia: 2019-20, if I'm not wrong.

Christina: So it's quite recent. And I know this next question is probably going to be a little bit intimidating because it's quite big. But what are the outcomes of feminist research in international relations? What are some key findings that you would like to draw our attention to from recent years?

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Lucia: Obviously there is a lot of discussion and research on gender mainstreaming. Basically it means that feminist foreign policy emphasizes this integration of gender perspective throughout basically all aspects of foreign policy. They are recognizing gender as this fundamental social category that intersects with other identities. And I think this is an important kind of addition to the current research because basically everything is intersectional in a way. It's layered, particularly UN, OECD, they are doing quite a good work bringing, I mentioned the data and then guidelines, research suggests that really including women in peace processes and security initiatives really lead to more sustainable peace agreements. 

If there is involvement of women and civil society in peace negotiations, this reduces the likelihood of failure of such agreement by 64%. So this is already UN-stamped kind of research

So we do actually have research on that, for instance, if there is involvement of women and civil society in peace negotiations, this reduces the likelihood of failure of such agreement by 64%. So this is already UN-stamped kind of research. So it actually makes a difference to have women on board when it comes to negotiations, when it comes to discussion the policies. Then studies also show a lot on how women's education, health, economic empowerment and so on, basically lead to positive social and economic outcomes. This is kind of base for feminist research, feminist foreign policy. It was brought by academia. So this rights, resources and representation, these three R's, it's already put in place into foreign policies of some countries. So I think that's quite an achievement for researchers in a couple of years basically.

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George: Lovely and, yeah, you've really grounded us in where we are now in terms of the research and the findings, but where does that sort of wave of feminist international relation theory stem from? Not many people know the traditions or the movements that it's rooted in. Could you just speak a little bit about the history and when we sort of start seeing it take shape?

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Lucia: Yeah, so like there is kind of division of where it might have started. Some are coming as far as the late 19th century and the suffragette movement, women's suffragette movement, and the establishment of international organization, the International Council of Women in 1888, Women's International League for Peace and Freedom in 1915, and UN in 1945. These were important kind of establishments and platforms for women to collaborate on those issues. But I think most of the researchers kind of agree that the Women Peace Conference that was organized during the First World War in 1915 in Hague, where over a thousand women actually met to really call for human, not military driven security, focusing on education, decolonization, and these kind of concepts that this might be really the main groundbreaking event that happened within the feminist foreign policy kind of concept development. 

The book that was published in 1990 by Cynthia Enloe, ‘Bananas, Beaches and Bases’, is actually kind of considered to be the first work on feminist international relations

This research of feminist foreign policy started in the late 80’s. Basically, this feminist perspective in international relations that you mentioned, George, in academia actually emerged in the so-called ‘third debate’. So between this positivist and post-positivist scholars, so if we go very academic in it, and then feminist international relations emerged really onwards from 1980s. The book that was published in 1990 by Cynthia Enloe, “Bananas, Beaches and Bases”, which is actually kind of considered to be the first work on feminist international relations. She was writing it in the late 80’s, exactly published in 1990. Enloe was talking about different roles that actually women play in international politics, but she was more talking about like diplomatic wives, sex workers on military bases or plantation sector workers. So it was kind of a different approach. For instance, later, a lot of elements of pacifism came into this research. Disarmament could be perceived as somehow emasculatory. So always it was kind of pushed towards feminism. That's how I saw it. But again, those concepts are being kind of revisited, reevaluated, especially in the war in Ukraine. And really the kind of landmark which I will mention is the UN Security Council Resolution 1325. I think whoever came across this topic definitely must have stumbled upon this resolution from 2000. It's on Women, Peace and Security and really a landmark resolution that basically acknowledges the disappropriate impact of armed conflicts on women and children, basically human, and the resolution also calls for their kind of increased participation in this peace process, this indecision making, so really calling for women to be part of negotiations.

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George: So would you say that is that like the first time that you see the academic research and the international relation theory kind of bleeding its way into more of a mainstream political change or policy?

Lucia: To really mainstream it I think it happened by Sweden adopting first time feminist foreign policy into their policies in 2014 and I think this is when the world actually kind of heard much more mainstream notion about having feminism in the foreign policy. And Margot Wallström, that was those times the Minister of Foreign Affairs, she was the one to kind of propose it and when I interviewed one of the ambassadors for, I think, gender equality, there was a special case, Anna Burns, and she was telling me that when she talked with Wallström, she was telling: “yeah, we push that name ‘feminism’ into the title of our foreign policy in order to really kind of spark the attention, to really bring the attention into something different that we are trying to do, that we really want to put human and human experience in security, in foreign affairs, in the globalized world, into the center”. And this is exactly what was the reason why a feminist foreign policy was actually this year, or actually last year, I think. Last year in March, kind of canceled out when the new government came in. The new government came and they said: “oh yeah, this label is kind of counterproductive, it's very much polarizing, so let's call it different because ‘feminism’ is kind of a scary word”. So I think these kind of worldwide debates are bringing it into front row. And then more and more students, for instance, are interested. I had students suddenly, really since 2016, being much more interested in women's place in diplomacy, in security, in negotiations and so on. Of course it's not such a new topic, it has been there forever. I recently talked to a retired diplomat, female diplomat, one of the first diplomats in Slovakia and she's been saying for years that: “okay, let's get this into the front row, but now it maybe shines a bit better”.

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Christina: Before we get away from the topic of research, I wanted us to talk a little bit about methodology because it seems like feminist IR research has a different kind of methodology to traditional research and perhaps this is what you were pointing to when you said that in the 80’s there was a shift from positivist to post-positivist research, correct me if I'm wrong. Can you briefly go into what feminist research methodologies look like? 

0:19:02
Lucia: Feminist research and methodologies are not monolithic. So they really vary based on theoretical frameworks, research objectives, and in general, they are quite rich. I also did my research based on the feminist methodologies and I see that if you really dive into it, the ocean is quite wide. What is kind of uniting is that intersectionality that I mentioned a couple of times. Very strong is the reflexivity and positionality. This is quite an interesting concept which I don't see applied in many methodologies, which basically means that feminist researchers actually acknowledge their own social location, their own subjectivity in the research process. They basically reflect on how their own identity has biases and this is how the research comes out. Participatory and collaborative approach, this is also part of the methods that are being used, participants and also communities that are being also shaped within this research process.

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There is some kind of empowering relationship between the researcher and the participant. This is quite an interesting power dynamic that traditionally probably in a research is not very usual. Of course qualitative and narrative methods, this is very much used because this exploration of live experience narratives and social context, this is incredibly important in any kind of feminist research. This includes interviews, focus groups, storytelling, content analysis, these are exactly the methods that we would be seeing much more in feminist research than any other. This ethical consideration, this kind of informed consent, this is very strongly kind of pushed into front row in feminist research. And very important, this center on these voices that are historically marginalized, that we don't talk too much, the feminists are exactly going and speaking to these women, to these groups. I think this is an important point. And also, not to forget, and this is also quite a uniting and maybe a controversial way to do the feminist research, is to kind of get very active into it and to aim for some transformative goals. Meaning that when a feminist researcher goes into field, they really aim to kind of challenge, even disrupt existing power relations. So I think this transformative character of the methodologies is also quite interesting.

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George: We just want to move on to something that might be a hard sort of, I don't know, to pin it down, but we just wanted to ask how close are we to an academic definition of a ‘feminist foreign policy’? Is it possible to define something like a ‘feminist foreign policy’? You've already mentioned it's constantly evolving and quite fluid. What's your stance on that?

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Lucia: I think I will keep my stance that it's really influenced by really diverse perspectives and approaches within these feminist scholarships. So, different scholars really may emphasize different aspects of feminist foreign policy when it comes to a definition. But I think the definitions that are out there already, they seem to be really fundamentally looking into needs of all people first and that it invokes processes of self-reflection regarding foreign policies. 

The definitions that are out there already, they seem to be really fundamentally looking into needs of all people first

So these elements more or less are present in every definition that I came across. And I think there is no need to really unify anything. Feminists in general are kind of trying to shy away from boxing things into anything. So let's have a spectrum and I think the definition comes here as well.

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Christina: I think this relates to my next question. I was about to challenge you a little bit and ask you why we even need an academic definition of feminist foreign policy in the first place. But from what you said, we have a bit of a broad definition. Even that broad definition, what's its use? Why is it necessary? And what are the sort of more practical implications of having it?

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Lucia: So I think that the academia kind of always looks for definitions, but I think in practice, the countries that are, for instance, calling for feminist foreign policy or having some kind of feminist foreign policy elements in their own structures are already implemented. They kind of define it in their own way and then work with it. So for instance, France is talking much more about feminist diplomacy. They have their kind of intention to bring more women into negotiations. In Luxembourg, the rights and representation for women and LGBTI people across the policies and kind of promoting it abroad, that's a different kind of approach of how they see their quote-unquote ‘feminist foreign policy’. Canada, for instance, came as the first one to introduce feminist international assistance policy, so much more focused on development, humanitarian aid. Because, for instance, if you have a development aid money, let's say to be very practical, and you want to go and, let's say, help an education system in Afghanistan. Well, obviously, if the women do not have access to education, they will not be able to participate in the aid that you are providing as a country.

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So, obviously, most of the money or basically 100% of the money will go to, let's say, education of boys. Having this kind of perspective, this gender lens, this gender glasses on you when you are making these kinds of policies, like for instance, Canada, they will already think: “yes, are the people that are going to be gaining kind of help or receiving help from us? Are there going to be only groups that are already probably the richest, the most prominent or the most educated, let's say, the healthiest”? So there are practical ways. Everybody understands it in a different way, but it also creates a common ground. For instance, when I talk to Spanish ambassador to Slovakia, she says that, yes, she sees that these countries that are already discussing or bringing this concept to the front row, they can come back together behind the closed doors of diplomacy. They exchange their ideas and it already creates this community and then elevates the whole concept further.

0:26:48
Christina: It's quite interesting because from what you're saying, I see that there's a bit of a dynamic relationship between concept building and policy building as well. So what I mean here is that the definition in a way keeps policies accountable, if that makes sense, and then the policies that are being built make the concept richer as time goes by, which I think is pretty cool.

0:27:15
Lucia: Exactly. And sorry to jump into it, but I think this is exactly how the academic research should work. We shouldn't be kind of pushing academia somewhere to a different room. We shouldn't be dividing academia from think tanks, from politicians. They always need to kind of find the ground. And I think the feminist foreign policy is supposed to create that space for all these elements to come together and we see that this is happening. 

We shouldn't be dividing academia from think tanks, from politicians

But for instance, again, not to be so shining, for instance, Mexico is such an example. Even, for instance, the implementation of their feminist foreign policy didn't come as any kind of grassroots movement. It was slightly coming from top down, slightly imposed, there were no discussions about how to implement it. And then afterwards, when there was quite a critique towards that from think tankers or academia, the foreign minister went across the country and had a listening tour. She was listening to what the academia or think tankers, organizations, they have to say about it or they want to say but again it wasn't a conversation. So the point on having conversation itself is really really crucial in feminist foreign policy.

0:28:42
George: A lot of work in feminist foreign policy, it might seem just from first glance like a new thing in the Global North but we've seen these feminist practices in foreign policy in South Asia and also black feminist thinkers have long called for states to make foreign policies as if black and brown lives matter. But in our research we've kind of seen feminist foreign policy painted as a product and an invention of the Global North looking from the outside. What are your thoughts on this perception of it and how do we go about changing that perception?

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Lucia: It's quite clear that the origins really are coming from or can be traced back to countries of the Global North, but feminist foreign policy is really not exclusive to the Global North. We mentioned Libya, Mexico, and feminist activism and scholarship is very strong in other countries. We hear some discussions that are going on from Chile, from Costa Rica, from other countries in Latin America. So it always comes kind of double-edged sword because if the countries do have back home issues with marginalized groups such as women, I will say it in this way, then it is quite difficult to kind of export it or come to the international forum and say: “hello, we are here to kind of promote the feminism”.
So I think it might be a bit difficult, but definitely the scholarship and activism is there. The advocacy for gender equality, social justice in international relations really are emerging from diverse global contexts and also in the Global South. Also the feminist research is not only coming from the West or so-called Global South, but also from the countries like Slovakia, like Czech Republic, like Poland, where the feminists are really kind of stepping up. The financing obviously is not as big, but it is important that it is happening here because of some non-democratic tendencies that are happening. We are part of the EU, but some kind of periphery at the same time. But still, there is this overview and knowledge and this particular experience that the post-Soviet countries may have that's also quite interesting.

0:31:38
Christina: As a final question, I wanted to ask you what FFP scholarship has been focusing on in recent years and what would you like to see more of in the years to come.

Lucia: The women participation in Peace and Security, this comes very quantitative I think, this research is also quite enriching when you come somewhere, for instance, in a TV and bring them numbers, people like to listen more. Feminist critique of global governance is such a topic. Gender mainstreaming, policy integration, this is also important. And also the practical implications, as we mentioned, our academia tracks a lot their implementation and how they actually come along. The kind of measuring of the outcomes of feminist foreign policies is quite a ‘sexy’ subject, I would say, of the last years. And I think it's quite important. I'm personally very interested in practical actions because often the debate gets very technical and quite also general. So, we need to have much more examples of how does feminist foreign policy looks in practice in the Mediterranean and in Greece you may have much more experience with that again. But when they were preparing the missions for the Mediterranean, the naval missions, as most of the people in the room who were preparing to those missions were men in the past, they were not much thinking about, for instance, what women need when they are being rescued. The big ships that were kind of picking them up, they didn't have female pads or things for the hygiene that is needed for kids, diapers and so on, because the female perspective wasn't really there. And then as the EU kind of pushed for more women to be there, the discussion got much more involving and involving also perspectives of somebody else who, okay, might not have been on that ship in the past, but have experience of being a woman, of how a woman feels when she's insecure overall and that is very important. So I am very much looking for concrete examples from the countries, especially now we see in Germany, but also in Global South, the discussions in Colombia that are going on about how to implement feminist foreign policy. Those are always quite fascinating because they show us that it is possible, that it can be implemented and that it's not only a word that some countries are putting forward to just look quite progressive.

0:34:40
Christina: Yeah, I think as the years go past, these things are going to start being documented and we're going to see the impacts of a feminist foreign policy, which hopefully is going to encourage more countries to put it into practice. So that's pretty exciting.
Well, thank you so much Lucia for your time. It was very lovely to interview you and hear you.

0:35:01
Lucia: Thank you very much both of you for being interested in this subject and also talking to someone from Slovakia that's quite original for the podcast. So good luck with your work. It sounds very interesting what you're doing.

George: Thanks for listening to ‘Retrieved’. In our next and final episode, we're speaking with Cypriot writer, professor and peace builder, Maria Hadjipavlou, all about the importance of applying a gendered lens to peace-building efforts. Stay tuned.

Christina: This podcast series is produced by the Greek Podcast Project and supported by the Thessaloniki office of the Heinrich Böll Foundation, distributed under a Creative Commons NonCommercial-ShareAlike license.